Medics

[FlyingR]

I was discussing with @drummer93 about medics and he came up with an original idea which I believe is pretty good. Here are the functions of the medic this is of course that the player would have semi realistic body damage:

- A heavy wounded player would have to re-spawn since in real life a player that has been severely hit or wounded would not be able to fight.
- If a player has a superficial wound, the medic can quickly heal it by using bandages or whatever and the player can continue to fight.
- The rol of the medic would be that he would take care of the of the heavy wounded players. If he manages to heal/patch them up, the medic's team would either not lose, or regain the lost a ticket since this means that the player didn't die.
- The enemy should not be able to hit the medic, and if that occurs the enemy team would lose tickets.
- A medic would not have a weapon
- A medic would not be able to enter a zone that is not being fought, meaning a flag that is not being captured by its team, in order to avoid medics being used as recon.
- A medic would not be able to cap a flag.
- A medic would be able to heal/patch the enemy heavy wounded, and the reward would be for example the enemy would not lose a ticket but the medic will regain double or x amount of tickets.
- Any player including medic can carry a wounded soldier (I know this has been mentioned a lot).

 

[Aniallator]

I was discussing with @drummer93 about medics and he came up with an original idea which I believe is pretty good. Here are the functions of the medic this is of course that the player would have semi realistic body damage:

- A heavy wounded player would have to re-spawn since in real life a player that has been severely hit or wounded would not be able to fight.

This is a feature, I recall (I think it was Mudra) mentioning this a while ago.

- The rol of the medic would be that he would take care of the of the heavy wounded players. If he manages to heal/patch them up, the medic's team would either not lose, or regain the lost a ticket since this means that the player didn't die.

I'd say you should regain a ticket if an unconcious player is revived. However, considering that IRL a soldier who was wounded enough to fall unconcious would be completely combat ineffecitve (as mentioned in your above quote), I doubt we'll have unconciousness in TW, so I don't think any tickets should be gained or lost.

- The enemy should not be able to hit the medic, and if that occurs the enemy team would lose tickets.

Depends on whether or not medics will be armed... in any case, no more than one ticket. Generally speaking you won't be able to tell if the enemy you're shooting at is a medic unless you're pretty close.

- A medic would not have a weapon

Perhaps... but during Normandy, were British and German medics ever issued weapons for the defense of themselves and their patient? A pistol, or something? How common was it? @VonMudra?

- A medic would not be able to enter a zone that is not being fought, meaning a flag that is not being captured by its team, in order to avoid medics being used as recon.

If there's medic protection (where killing a medic looses tickets), how about instead lone medics in an undisputed flag zone loose their protection? I think preventing medics from entering flag zones, even though undisputed, would feel too limiting.

- A medic would not be able to cap a flag.

Again, if there's medic protection, then I could see this.

- A medic would be able to heal/patch the enemy heavy wounded, and the reward would be for example the enemy would not lose a ticket but the medic will regain double or x amount of tickets.

I don't think that's necessary, because medics wouldn't usually bother treating enemy wounded in combat when they have their own wounded too look after; treating enemies generally occured after they were taken prisoner. And anyway, what's supposed to happen when you've treated the wounded enemy?

- Any player including medic can carry a wounded soldier (I know this has been mentioned a lot).

I really, really hope we see this, whether in Overlord or not! What system should be implemented, though; carrying, dragging, or both? There's an Arma 3 realism mod called ACE that allows carrying and dragging, when I'm at my computer I'll show how they implemented it.

If TW is going to implement medics to full historical accuracy, then this is more or less the way to go. However, if medics are armed, then I don't think medics should have any form of protection. Realistically speaking both system are pretty historically accurate, because medics were known to carry sidearms for self defense, and then there's the unfortunate truth that the immunity of medics often wasn't observed by Allies as well as the Germans.

Also Flying, just out of curiosity, what would you have in mind in terms of semi-realistic body damage? And what kind of equipment should medics have? In terms of bandages, morphine, et cetera.

EDIT:

 

[drummer93]

Also Flying, just out of curiosity, what would you have in mind in terms of semi-realistic body damage? And what kind of equipment should medics have? In terms of bandages, morphine, et cetera.

bangages, morphine and sulfa could be the most important things to have in a combat situation, and maybe something to make tourniquets. Could be interesting if the medic have to do a serie of steps to attend the wounded, like a mini-game. Maybe something like: inject morphine, apply sulfa and bind up. I'm don't have knowledge about medicine and what I said is an aproximity that could have some errors.

Is important to said that his mission was mainly to give health care to allow an injured or sick soldier reach the hospital, so I think they not have a lot of possibilities to do

 

[VonMudra]

Combat Medics were armed with pistols for self defense and defense of their patients. In the Pacific, it was very common for American medics to carry rifles or carbines, and sometimes rifles (though less common) for the Germans on the Eastern Front. It is a myth that medics are not allowed to defend themselves. In fact nowadays combat medics are simply issued rifles like everyone else.

 

[drummer93]

Combat Medics were armed with pistols for self defense and defense of their patients. In the Pacific, it was very common for American medics to carry rifles or carbines, and sometimes rifles (though less common) for the Germans on the Eastern Front. It is a myth that medics are not allowed to defend themselves. In fact nowadays combat medics are simply issued rifles like everyone else.

we know, but we found some difficulties that affect the system, especially about the "self-defense". Players will not use their weapon in self-defense. I don't want that the medics act like regular soldiers. Maybe we could think something to stop the indiscriminate use of weapons by medics

 

[drummer93]

I want to share 2 articles of the Geneva Convention about the self defense.

Article 19

Fixed establishments and mobile medical units of the Medical Service may inno circumstances be attacked, but shall at all times be respected and protectedby the Parties to the conflict. Should they fall into the hands of the adverseParty, their personnel shall be free to pursue their duties, as long as the capturingPower has not itself ensured the necessary care of the wounded andsick found in such establishments and units.The responsible authorities shall ensure that the said medical establishmentsand units are, as far as possible, situated in such a manner that attacks againstmilitary objectives cannot imperil their safety.

Article 22

The following conditions shall not be considered as depriving a medical unitor establishment of the protection guaranteed by Article 19:

1. That the personnel of the unit or establishment are armed, and that theyuse the arms in their own defence, or in that of the wounded and sick intheir charge.

2. That in the absence of armed orderlies, the unit or establishment is protectedby a picket or by sentries or by an escort.

3. That small arms and ammunition taken from the wounded and sickand not yet handed to the proper service, are found in the unit or establishment.

4. That personnel and material of the veterinary service are found in theunit or establishment, without forming an integral part thereof.

5. That the humanitarian activities of medical units and establishments orof their personnel extend to the care of civilian wounded or sick


---------EDIT--------

I forgot to say that these two articles belong to Chapter 3

 

[Aniallator]

bangages, morphine and sulfa could be the most important things to have in a combat situation, and maybe something to make tourniquets. Could be interesting if the medic have to do a serie of steps to attend the wounded, like a mini-game. Maybe something like: inject morphine, apply sulfa and bind up. I'm don't have knowledge about medicine and what I said is an aproximity that could have some errors.


Is important to said that his mission was mainly to give health care to allow an injured or sick soldier reach the hospital, so I think they not have a lot of possibilities to do

I would love to see this! IMO a medical system that's not too complex, but more complex than just putting on bandages, is the best system. Using the ACE mod in Arma 3, there are three medical systems, vanilla, basic, and advanced. In vanilla you just slap on a single bandage if you're wounded, it's dead boring. In basic your body has six damage areas, each of your arms and legs, your head, and your torso. One bandage on a bandage area stops bleeding from minor wounds, while two bandages stop bleeding from major wounds. How fast you bleed depends on if it's a minor or major wound. Receiving a wound results in pain (portrayed by chromatic aberration), which is counteracted by morphine. Advanced aims to simulate real life.

Having use the three extensively, I can say that the basic medical system is by far the best, being immersive and realistic, but also enjoyable. I could easily see an identical or near identical system in TW, with as drummer suggested sulfa powder that should be applied to a wound before bandaging it. Perhaps, even if the wound is fully bandaged, you loose health bit by bit as a result of the wound degrading unless you apply sulfa powder before bandaging, and if you want to apply sulfa powder after a wound has been bandaged you must bandage it again after doing so. @Maniche is the medic here, he knows best!

we know, but we found some difficulties that affect the system, especially about the "self-defense". Players will not use their weapon in self-defense. I don't want that the medics act like regular soldiers. Maybe we could think something to stop the indiscriminate use of weapons by medics

True, players will never use their weapons in pure self defense, and I don't see how there's any way to stop that. Now hopefully, hopefully, medics in TW will have a pistol and no other weapon (save for, I suppose, a combat knife). Assuming this is the case, I think players will be far less likely to engage offensively. So while not eliminating the self defense dilemma, it does get close, while also being most realistic as opposed to giving medics bolt-action rifles as in PR:WW2.

 

[Maniche]

I'd say sprinkle the wound with cookie crumbs!

In all seriousness, some good suggestions here guys, thanks!

 

[mmiedzianyy]

I was thinking about self-defense problem and i didn't find any good solution. Where is this thin line between being threaten of enemy fire? Just imagine situation when you are attacking the bridge. There are few wounded men calling for help. Medic is trying to push forward to help them but encounters heavy enemy fire directed at him.. or soldiers pushing forward? When he can shot back? Maybe Team can do sort of enemy fire awareness? For example when medic is under fire for certain ammount of time or fire is very accurate and concentrated at him, then he could respond? This maybe would prevent medics being used as recon (@FlyingR mentioned that)? There has to be big punishment for killing medics, like loosing tickets or personal points. It has to be significant, because not all players want to follow generally accepted rules..

 

[drummer93]

I was thinking about self-defense problem and i didn't find any good solution. Where is this thin line between being threaten of enemy fire? Just imagine situation when you are attacking the bridge. There are few wounded men calling for help. Medic is trying to push forward to help them but encounters heavy enemy fire directed at him.. or soldiers pushing forward? When he can shot back? Maybe Team can do sort of enemy fire awareness? For example when medic is under fire for certain ammount of time or fire is very accurate and concentrated at him, then he could respond? This maybe would prevent medics being used as recon (@FlyingR mentioned that)? There has to be big punishment for killing medics, like loosing tickets or personal points. It has to be significant, because not all players want to follow generally accepted rules..

well yesterday I was thinking something similar. My idea is that the medics only can unsheathe their gun if they are being attacked. When they aren't, the option to use the gun is locked. But is difficult to determinate when the enemy is really shooting the medic, because they are under enemy fire most of the time in a combat situation. But yes, as you said, if the fire is concentrated at him for a period of time (to determinate), the medic can respond. I think it is a good solution

 

[FlyingR]

[MENTION=2108]Aniallator[/MENTION] your point about a medic losing its protection at an undisputed flag would work too. The thing with the medic having a sidearm is that I think it would be easier for the devs not giving the Medics guns rather than giving them and having to do extra codes such as when the medic can shoot etc. Plus if you give a medic a gun you have to think that he could shoot with immunity, whereas if you don't give the medic a gun it's as simple as he can't shoot so nobody can't shoot him and if you do you lose tickets. If they do have a weapon, there should be a system that would limit the medic from shooting unless it's for self-defense and to see how the protection would be done.

To answer your questions just legs, arms, torso and head to make it simple. If they have resource and time maybe expand it a bit to feet, hands, etc. and as for the equipment, like drummer said basically.

 

[drummer93]

exactly. The only way to prevent this problem is to make something as mmied said, but implies more code

 

[FlyingR]

exactly. The only way to prevent this problem is to make something as mmied said, but implies more code

Yeah, so it's up to the devs to think if it's worth all the hassle or not.

 

[Aniallator]

IMO, whatever happens, medics need a pistol, even if that necessitates some form of when-you-can-and-can't-fire system. It's not only more realistic, but more fun for the medic... I think not having any way to shoot at the enemy would feel a bit degrading Assuming medics are thus armed, what of a medic protection system? As good a feature as it sounds, I don't think we should have a medic protection system, and here's why...

Whether medics are armed or not, there are other ways to die than a bullet to the chest. A grenade could be tossed into a room, with the thrower having no way of knowing if there was a medic inside. As a medic, you could be killed by artillery or mortar fire, or when the vehicle you're riding in is destroyed. Also, a medic doesn't have to be alone to conduct recon. What if your squad is pinned down in an alley, with MG fire coming from somewhere up the street? No one can go out into the street, because they'll be shredded before they take two steps... except for the medic, who with protection, could step out and get a twenty on the MG position, then pop back into the alley and inform the section leader. There are numerous other scenarios where this could apply. But I understand the want for any form of medic protection system, so what about this; when a medic is killed (no matter the circumstances), the now deceased medic's team either doesn't lose a ticket, or gains one ticket? Or perhaps the enemy team doesn't lose any tickets for players killed by a medic? Or, thinking on it further, perhaps killing an enemy medic doesn't result in the enemy team losing tickets unless that medic has killed someone before, in which case the enemy would lose one ticket as with any other death?

 

[FlyingR]

I concur that the medic should have a weapon, but it would be extra work for the devs to create a system for it. I know it's hard to implement, especially when there are grenades, artillery, machine guns that can kill randomly a medic, in those scenarios it wouldn't matter, the medic's team would lose a ticket. The thing is that giving the medic a gun it allows players to maybe abuse this system. If a medic doesn't lose a ticket nor gains a ticket, then the medics can go kill without consequences. There are many ways to exploit the medic. Removing the gun would make it much simpler for the gameplay and for the devs. Or like mmied said as well.

 

[drummer93]

Or perhaps the enemy team doesn't lose any tickets for players killed by a medic?

I like this. But remember that one man with a pistol could make the difference in battle, It's not all about tickets. Your team could loose a valuable position. And again, I don't like the idea of medics acting like another soldier :/

 

[Aniallator]

I think it should just be kept to tickets, implementing the gain or loss of tickets for the two teams based on if the medic died or killed an enemy, whether or not the medic had killed an enemy before, et cetera. For example...

You (a medic) kill an enemy = your team loses (or the enemy team gains) a few tickets. This is to discourage medics killing enemies unless they have to.
Enemy kills you = enemy team loses a few tickets. This is to discourage enemies killing you unless they have to.
Enemy kills you, but you have killed an enemy previously = your team loses a ticket. This is to allow enemies to kill you without penalty if you killed one of them.

I really don't think it has to be any more complex than that. Depending on how many tickets are lost/gained (probably around ten, one isn't enough), I don't see why medics would randomly kill enemies or vice versa so long as enemies and medics alike understand the consequences and have some common sense.

 

[drummer93]

You (a medic) kill an enemy = your team loses (or the enemy team gains) a few tickets. This is to discourage medics killing enemies unless they have to.
Enemy kills you = enemy team loses a few tickets. This is to discourage enemies killing you unless they have to.
Enemy kills you, but you have killed an enemy previously = your team loses a ticket. This is to allow enemies to kill you without penalty if you killed one of them.

perfect idea

 

[drummer93]

[MENTION=2433]FlyingR[/MENTION] [MENTION=2108]Aniallator[/MENTION] [MENTION=2186]mmiedzianyy[/MENTION]. We have to write a medic system documentation and share it to devs

 

[drummer93]

@Aniallator I think we have to exclude from your idea the indirect enemy fire, like the artillery. What do you think about that?