Freedom of movement, the most important thing in a realistic game.

[Duke]

Hello!

Yep, it's me again.

I would like to talk about movement and the immersion it gives. In real life, you can do so many types of movement that you can not do in most FPS or "realistic" games and most probably you won't even be able for a while. For example here is a list: {prone roll, prone leaning, blind fire, tactical hand markings, vaulting while sprinting, shooting while sprinting, jumping anywhere anytime, dive rolls, slide, prone dive, kicking, weapon bashing, looking around only with your head, hand to hand combat, moving objects, climbing onto things that are as high as you are or higher. THSESE ARE EXAMPLES NOT SUGGESTIONS, THOSE ARE BELOW IN MY NEXT POST} All these things, I can do all of them, I, and untrained 19 year old villager. I know because I did a lot of these things during air soft/paintball matches. In real life there is nothing there to limit you, only your problem solving capabilities and your creativity. For example the prone roll, it saved my life more times than I could remember (in RnL again) It is there to use by anyone, yet players barely use it and this is one of those things that gives Me advantage and gives them the oppurtunity to train and get better by combining movement types. In real life, I could dig a hole for my MP40 magazine while proneing, so I don't have to expose myself. I could slide from cover to cover to confuse enemies who have their sights ready in torso height. I am not saying that you should add all the mentioned things. But at least some basic stuff like prone leaning, prone roll, climbing onto high things, prone dive, and slide maybe. The choice is yours, but I would not like an another game where the developers limit my creativity by not adding enough type of movement (perfect example BF Bad Company 2, BF 3, Insurgency.) Please think about it developers and understand that we do not want you to decide what is useful and what is not. Please just add some of these features and we will decide if we want to use them or not. If we want to slide from this cover to that one or if I will just walk there.I will upload some gameplay videos to show you how large your freedom can be in some games.

 

[VonMudra]

Leaning and climbing and such will of course be ingame. Other stuff is very modern, not trained or done in combat in WW2. And digging a hole for your MP40 magazine? That's reaching the realm of fantasy- people in combat don't just randomly dig holes for their weapon magazines. If you're in a situation where you're prone in open country like that, you're not staying in any one place for longer than a burst before you HAVE to move.

 

[Duke]

And digging a hole for your MP40 magazine? That's reaching the realm of fantasy- people in combat don't just randomly dig holes for their weapon magazines.

I do not want you to make that one possible, it is just a possibility in real life. And you you are right, I bet nobody that things like that RANDOMLY IN COMBAT, but why not during preparations for defense? I would have done it in real life, it would have been an awesome monopod.

I said, I do not want to implement all of them, and don't be short sighted. We have no idea what was going on during those battles. More than 60 million ppl were involved in that conflict. And believe me some of then did unusual things because they got right the idea at the right moment. Please, do not want to try to tell what happened during all those battles and limit US based on those judgements. There are no records of the single little movement. Let us feel like humans, who have bodies in the game. Make the some SIMPLE EVERYDAY moves available. Prone roll, prone dive, prone leaning, sliding, blind fire, crouch/heads down sprinting, breathing out for shots, weapon resting. I do not want anything that was not seen in any game before. I would just like to play a game which has all of those features.

Red orchestra 2: Taking cover, weapon resting, holding breath, blind fire, prone leaning, crouch sprinting, weapon bash, checking ammo, not throwing away hafl-empty magazines, adjusting sights

Resistance and Liberation: Prone dive, Prone roll, climbing over walls that are higher than the character, automatic weapon rest, ability to throw any weapon away

Darkest Hour: Automatic weapon rest even on vertical edges (I use that a lot in real life while hunting), crouch sprint, prone dive, prone leaning, slow turning while prone

Arma2: Free look

WWII Online: instant look to left-right, adjusting ironsights


And if anyone has any great "seen before" movement types/features please list them as I did above.

 

[VonMudra]

Weapon resting will probably be implemented, a la RO/DH. Using the MP40 mag as a monopod would be a bit remiss, it was a tinny magazine and pressure like that can cause the magazine to misfeed. This is why you were supposed to hold it by the magazine well, not the mag itself.

Prone rolls, dives, sliding, etc, is all just fantasy really. I know considering I've had my fair share of time running around in these uniforms with this gear. Sliding like you imagine would be a quick way to rip apart your uniform and to lose half your **** in combat. Rolls are the same, those buckles, especially German, come undone damn fast and then you're left trying to sort your gear out whilst people are shooting at you.

Also, gameplay wise, the last thing we would want is everyone treating the game like some hollywood movie, dancing and diving aimlessly around. The point is to have a tactical shooter, not a dive fest. Yes we don't know what every single person did in the war. But that said, we do know how they trained, how they fought, and have access to many, many battle accounts. Duly, we can use that data to extrapolate a larger picture of how combat took place in WW2. Hint: It isn't like any hollywood move, airsoft game, or almost any WW2 computer game. It was slow paced, methodical movement mixed with brief moments of sheer, gut wrenching terror. It was an utter meatgrinder that chewed up and devoured countless millions. It was not people jumping all around and leaping and diving and rolling through the air with 50 pounds of gear strapped to them whilst being shot at.

You say you want to feel like a human in the game. Then you will feel like a human carrying a 10lb rifle, 50lbs+ worth of ammunition, food, and gear, wearing a restrictive, hot, heavy wool uniform, heavy hobnailed boots, a heavy steel helmet, and who is under fed, over worked, and in a constant fight or flight battle in his mind.

 

[Sir Apple]

Some these suggestions sound more like something for a simulation game, like farm simulator with guns.

I'm not part of development anymore but I'm pretty sure traction wars is essentially aiming for realistic combat... or in less technical terms, not Call of Duty style twitch shooting Running and gunning crazyness. But equally not so radical in the direction of realism that you have to take a **** and drink water.

 

[Pascucci]

Duke has just won my 'little ray of sunshine' award. Good job.

 

[Duke]

Weapon resting will probably be implemented, a la RO/DH. Using the MP40 mag as a monopod would be a bit remiss, it was a tinny magazine and pressure like that can cause the magazine to misfeed. This is why you were supposed to hold it by the magazine well, not the mag itself.

If you say so, I never had a real mp40 in my hand. But yeah that was absolutely not something that I want in game.

Some these suggestions sound more like something for a simulation game, like farm simulator with guns.

I don't really understand that one. Is it that most of the ppl here does not know the difference between an example and an actual suggestion? I will repeat myself again. I do not want you to invent or implement anything that was NOT SEEN BEFORE IN other realistic games.


My suggestions were these:

Red orchestra 2: Taking cover, weapon resting, holding breath, blind fire, prone leaning, crouch sprinting, weapon bash, checking ammo, not throwing away hafl-empty magazines, adjusting sights

Resistance and Liberation: Prone dive, Prone roll, climbing over walls that are higher than the character, automatic weapon rest, ability to throw any weapon away

Darkest Hour: Automatic weapon rest even on vertical edges (I use that a lot in real life while hunting), crouch sprint, prone dive, prone leaning, slow turning while prone

Arma2: Free look

WWII Online: instant look to left-right, adjusting ironsights

Sliding, I believe it is hard but I could slide in my Mc Allister marpat (urban) pants with losing only one pocket. But my dad's polish uniform did not even get a scratch

I never said I want running and twitch shooting. All I want is free movement. To do what I want whenever I need to. When my knee will be all right I will get my combat gear on and try to make some sideway rolls, with a backpack. But will we have backpacks on our backs in game? VonMudra, what you said about the MP40 magazine as a monopod is somthing I believe, because I never had the chance to hold any other WW2 weapon than a Mosin-Nagant and a nameless rifle made by some gunsmith. But when you say, that prone dive, roll and sliding are not possible I do not believe that, because I used them in real life. I do not want Max Payne style diving, but a realistic diving which you HAD to do sometimes to get to cover even if you were damn hungry, had your feet broken or had a full, wet gear on you.

 

[VonMudra]

The point I was attempting to make is that not only did soldiers not fight like that, but it also goes against good gameplay. The last thing we, as a realism based game, want, is for the players to be jumping and diving and rolling around aimlessly, all whilst shooting ****. The point is to represent combat as it happened, not as it happens in an airsoft arena where you are never, at any point, fearing for your life, and for which you have not had specific training regimens on how to advance, take cover, etc, drilled into your head through months of basic training. The animations for going to prone have already been done on the mocap, and they will be realistic, not fantasy, not airsoft arena.

Also, major bad move to go off and try sliding in a Polish uniform. That's history right there.

Finally, this:

"I do not want you to invent or implement anything that was NOT SEEN BEFORE IN other realistic games."

What are you trying to say here? It's essentially asking us to not attempt to create new gameplay on our own, and instead just copy things from other games. In which case, go play the other games. We here at Traction Wars are about creating something new.

 

[Pascucci]

I agree with Duke, power sliding was something everyone during WWII was trained to do. We should realize that the average soldier acted like a Speznatz kommando. So yes, we should make sure sliding is put on high priority, a game without sliding would be unrealistic and will always feel lacking. Slide slide slippity slide. Come along on a fantastic voyage brother.

 

[Kevino]

Some these suggestions sound more like something for a simulation game, like farm simulator with guns.

I'm not part of development anymore but I'm pretty sure traction wars is essentially aiming for realistic combat... or in less technical terms, not Call of Duty style twitch shooting Running and gunning crazyness. But equally not so radical in the direction of realism that you have to take a **** and drink water.

sounds like a good ambush time! beaky, get on the outhouse job quick for your map!

 

[Pjosip]

I need to say that I agree with Mudra on most parts.
While it would be interesting to have a keybind for everything you could possibly imagine, there is a line you have to draw somewhere.

While sitting in place and digging a nice little hole with your knife to fit your MP40's mag in that has good modeling and animations would indeed be a nice touch, it would also put unnecesary development time and more importantly occupy processing power, disk space, ram and whatnot not only for you but for everybody in the game.

Yes I know you didn't neccesarely say this has to be in the game, but neather have I said you said so.
Similarely like you just making a point

Some things like a cover system (that is kind of needed for blind firing) that is cool, usefull and natural without being inconvinient (like a giant magnet attaching you to a nearby wall when you get close to it) is something I would like to see in game aswell as climbing large obsticales (maybe with a help of a friend in a reasonable fashion), certain things like somebody powersliding or diving into a nearby mud is something I would not enjoy seeing.

 

[Duke]

I do not want you to copy, I would like you to add the features. If you think that is copying then so is WASD as controls and leaning and other stuff you already have. What you said was nonsense. Also. Can't a prone dive be realistic? A little concussion and a LOT of stamina loss on impact? If you could implement these in a realistic way, now then TW would really be the best ever. I want TW to be the best ever. I love how awesome the maps look. And the animations too.

And that polish uniform was not a WW2 uniform, don't worry I am not completely insane xD It is a 1970-80 uniform.

Okay now let's talk about prone leaning. And climbing over walls that are higher than the character, just a few inches higher.
Crouch/ "heads down" sprint?

And one more last word about sliding, Baseball and Americans.

 

[th_battleaxe]

And one more last word about sliding, Baseball and Americans.

Your point being?

Just because baseball is an American sport, doesn't mean every American can slide like Derek Jeter.

 

[Roughbeak]

sounds like a good ambush time! beaky, get on the outhouse job quick for your map!

If only I had a proper computer and graphics card - *sniff* *sniff*.

 

[VonMudra]

Climbing over walls is possible, we don't want to have the stupid jump animation to get over everything.. Probably can't have an interaction between two characters.

 

[siben]

Why even have an unrealistic jump? Can't it be that the only thing there is is a climbing option when close to obstacles? It might feel weird, but is so much better.

 

[Roughbeak]

Why even have an unrealistic jump? Can't it be that the only thing there is is a climbing option when close to obstacles? It might feel weird, but is so much better.

My thoughts exactly! Using the "ledgestatic" in the SDK would make this work, at least for climbing over things.

I have no idea how to disable jump completely.

 

[Kevino]

Your point being?

Just because baseball is an American sport, doesn't mean every American can slide like Derek Jeter.

how many americans do you know? im pretty sure we learn how to power slide right out of the womb! :laugh:

 

[Duke]

I don't want 2-3m power slides damn it. Stay realistic! Also interaction between characters IS POSSIBLE. Warface has it and it is on CryEngine. I did not ask for that feature tho, even tho it is realistic and possible I doubt you would add it.

You say I will be able to climb over 1.80m (roughly 6 foot) high walls? A free jump would also be nice, even if it can be done only while sprinting.

Prone leaning? Crouch Sprint?

 

[Kevino]

i would hate to get stuck on a fallen down tree or step and not be able to "jump" over it.