Militaria

[Feldmeijer]

.55 Boys?

 

[VonMudra]

Much, much too big to be a Boys rifle round. Is it a 20mm/25mm round?

In fact, after sleuthing a bit, I want to say it's a 25mm French Hotchkiss round.

 

[siben]

Yes it is a 25mm Hotchkiss round. One of the only canon shells that i know that look like a scaled up rifle bullet. Don't have my .55 boys bullets with me now but i will take a picture of it so you can compare the sizes soon.

Here is the back of it.

 

[VonMudra]

Bloody awesome <3 Where'd yah find it?

 

[siben]

Well... they are common here and turn up for sale often on second hands webites for around 20 euro.

 

[Colonel__Klink]

Interesting piece. I had to look up the gun that it went to. Seems to be an at gun that was behind the times and struggled with german armor in 1940. Could have sworn that germany was primarily using pz2 and czech 38t at the time right?

 

[VonMudra]

Interesting piece. I had to look up the gun that it went to. Seems to be an at gun that was behind the times and struggled with german armor in 1940. Could have sworn that germany was primarily using pz2 and czech 38t at the time right?

The most common German tanks in 1940 were still the Panzer 1 and 2, followed closely by the Pz38t. The Hotchkiss 25mm had no problem with the frontal armour on the Pz1 and 2, and would just need close-ish ranges for the Pz38t, Panzer III, and Panzer IV, as it could penetrate 40mm of armour at 400m, and about 50mm at 100m. Meaning, effectively, at 400m it could go through the armour of any German tank of the time (the thickest armour would be the Panzer III and IV, with 30mm fronts).

The main weakness of the Hotchkiss was simply the size of the round, which was unable to cause major damage to the tank, it being effectively a highly up-gunned AT rifle. This meant that, while you could kill the crew, the tank itself would not be badly harmed, and so was very easy to simply patch the hole and send it back into the field with a new crew. It is similar to the state of affairs in the Polish campaign- the Poles knocking out almost 75% of the German tank force (1400 tanks claimed, which matches quite well with German records), but on roughly 40% of those, the Germans were simply able to weld over the AT rifle hole and get the tank sent back into the fight. This plays hell with post-war accounts, as the Germans listed field-repairable and/or factory repairable tanks as merely 'damaged', meaning the number of German tanks listed as 'destroyed' (ie, unrepairable) was a much smaller number than the actual number knocked out in combat. The only real way to calculate German tank losses is to look at divisional records showing actual tank-on-hand numbers, which is how you'll find things like the 4th Panzer in Poland starting the war with 352 tanks, and being sent home to Germany on September 18th/19th with ~90.

To add to this, the Germans had similar troubles with the 37mm. I remember one account where a British tanker in France in 1940 caught a 37mm shell through his tank that entered one side of the turret and went out the other cleanly, without hurting anyone or anything. He simply stuffed a sock (yes, a sock) in each of the holes and went on with his day.

 

[siben]

25mm AP is simply to small and slow to do any serious damage unless you hit something important. Still it is my favourite early war AT gun out there.

Here are some more pictures, decided to take out some of the rimmed bullets i have from ww2.

From top to bottom (pic is taken at angle, sorry):

7.62x54r (russian)
8x50r (8mm lebel) and 8x27r (8mm lebel also) (french)
8x56r (funny that they actually printed it on the side) (austria hungary)
.303 or 7.7mm (british)



Comparison or the .55 Boys (1.4cm) and the 25mm Hotchkiss.

 

[Colonel__Klink]

What confuses me is how those knocked out tanks didn't quickly become captured tanks....

Was it simply that the French didn't push the Germans off the armor carcasses after the battle or what?

 

[VonMudra]

What confuses me is how those knocked out tanks didn't quickly become captured tanks....

Was it simply that the French didn't push the Germans off the armor carcasses after the battle or what?

As I have explained in another thread I believe, the French in 1940 had a lot of trouble in translating local tactical success into operational success. They simply, too often, abandoned the field to the Germans due to a lack of manpower and support from higher up. This meant, more often than not, abandoning both knocked out German tanks, and their own knocked out or broken down tanks.

To add to this, the Germans had probably the best battlefield recovery and repair department in the war. Battlefield recovery vehicles and crews would often join in attacks, with the aim being to recover knocked out tanks as they were taken out, meaning that even if the enemy held the battlefield at the end of the day, there wouldn't be any tanks for them to capture anyways. This reached a peak in Africa, when German recovery teams were even assaulting with the Panzers and recovering British tanks in combat, in order to further buff up the DAK's panzer count. It was dangerous work, but it was needed when your nation was, in 1940, only producing around 150-175 tanks a month (roughly half the size of a Panzer Division in 1939/40).

 

[Colonel__Klink]

Strangely that reminds me of playing supreme commander where your fighting over the ability to loot the battlefield wrecks as well as for territory lol.

 

[siben]

Since i had one of my ammunition boxes open you might like some other pictures that i took.

Here is an example of how the 8x56 steyr is packed.




And, for the Dutch people here, a 1926 dated clip in 6.5x53r, i have a few of these, found them at a market at 6am in brussels.

 

[Colonel__Klink]

Y'know. Its probably being foolish but the cartridge information being stamped on the side of the case worries me instead of having it stamped on the head. Just seems that it may weaken the case ability to stretch...

 

[siben]

Y'know. Its probably being foolish but the cartridge information being stamped on the side of the case worries me instead of having it stamped on the head. Just seems that it may weaken the case ability to stretch...

No need to worry, i said it was printed on the sides (maybe stencilled is the correct term?). the head looks like this.

 

[siben]

Little update, not war related really but this sucker will give me a lightshow for new years eve
1960's made GECO flaregun.

 

[siben]

A classic example of saving small bits and loosing sight over the big picture.
Opened some small boxes i bought over the year. Put them all with eachother. Seems i have more 8mm mauser and 8mm Kurtz that is pre 1945 then i thought. Then to think i know a guy that is holding 400 kurtz and 300 8mm for me to have... I should belt them up in a 250 round belt.

Some questions though, what was the composition of a German machine gunners belt? How can i clean my bullets till they shine without using elbow grease. Is a tumbler or sonic cleaner safe?

 

[siben]

A few days ago i went to shoot my Berthier 1892 Carbine... It was insane to say the least. The kick wasn't that bad for its size, but the sound was a really low bang. and the muzzle flash was a meter long even with reduced Prvi loads. My brass also expanded quite a bit.


I have no idea if this is normal, it wasn't like i expected. I am also not really used to this rifle.


Please don't mind my trigger finger and wigling. i decided to let my dad (worst camera man ever) film it and it was the first time that i shot it. Stress levels where high since it had been really thoroughly inspected, but not test fired since i have it. It made a 8cm group at 25 meters.

http://youtu.be/-IA-qTwfJ5s

 

[Agunter999]

Hello, Does anyone have any good images of any Steyr Mannlicher 93 rifles, or Mauser 1900 Luxembourgish rifles I can use on my website.

any other minor nation rifles would be good actually

 

[siben]

You can always post a list or at least a preference. If i have it then I don't mind looking for a buddy with a pro camera and take some pictures of it.

 

[Agunter999]

I am looking for any steyr rifle, Danish and Norwegian Krags. Belgian/Yugoslav Mausers are my main interest for the moment